Forum:2005 Atlantic hurricane season/November

This is a Wikipedia Archive The following forum is a transclusion of tropical discussion on Wikipedia talk pages which occurred before the existence of the Hurricane Wiki. It is simply provided here for ease of access.

Week 1
It's pretty quiet out there - a promising sign that the hurricane season is finally winding down - or is it just a lull with another record (relatively speaking) pulse of activity coming? Remember in 1995, November was quiet... CrazyC83 04:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd say that we've got a relatively long quiet stretch going -- 6 days since the final report on Beta Route56 02:57, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI:10W4A: Lesser Ant.
8 AM Discussion:

CENTRAL ATLANTIC TROPICAL WAVE ALONG 47W S OF 19N MOVING W 10-15 KT. A WELL-DEFINED AND ALMOST CIRCULAR LOW-LEVEL CIRCULATION IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE WAVE. CONVECTION REMAINS LIMITED AND DISPLACED WEST WITH SCATTERED MODERATE/ISOLATED STRONG CONVECTION IN A SMALL AREA W OF THE WAVE FROM 12N-16N BETWEEN 45W-51W.

11:30 AM TWO:

AN AREA OF POORLY ORGANIZED SHOWER ACTIVITY ABOUT 650 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER ANTILLES IS ASSOCIATED WITH A WESTWARD MOVING TROPICAL WAVE. SOME SLOW DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM COULD OCCUR OVER THE NEXT DAY OR SO.

And the recon plan for tomorrow:

OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY: PSBL LOW LEVEL INVEST NEAR 15N AND 61W FOR 31/1800Z.

Could we see an invest at NRL soon? -- RattleMan 14:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

THE ATLANTIC OCEAN TROPICAL WAVE WHICH IS ALONG 49W/50W SOUTH OF 19N MOVING WEST 10 TO 15 KT REALLY LOOKS GREAT ON VISIBLE SATELLITE IMAGERY. CYCLONIC FLOW IN THE LOW CLOUDS COVERS THE ATLANTIC WATERS FROM 10N TO 17N BETWEEN 45W AND 56W. SCATTERED MODERATE TO ISOLATED STRONG SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS FROM 13N TO 17N BETWEEN 48W AND 55W. SOME SLOW DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM MAY OCCUR DURING THE NEXT DAY OR SO.

Uh oh, "really looks great"? AySz88^ - ^ 20:39, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

SATELLITE IMAGES INDICATE THAT THE SHOWER ACTIVITY ASSOCIATED WITH A TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED ABOUT 600 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER ANTILLES IS SHOWING SOME SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS ARE BECOMING A LITTLE MORE FAVORABLE FOR SLOW DEVELOPMENT DURING THE NEXT DAY OR TWO AS THE SYSTEM MOVES WESTWARD. tdwuhs


 * Brother Gamma may be preparing to pledge the Greek Letter Society.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 00:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think I can take another tropical Frat boy here :D. They're causing too much heartburn. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

92L.INVEST
And it's now an invest. -- RattleMan 00:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

10:30 PM TWO:

SATELLITE IMAGES INDICATE THAT THE SHOWER ACTIVITY ASSOCIATED WITH A TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED ABOUT 550 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER ANTILLES IS SHOWING SOME SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS ARE BECOMING A LITTLE MORE FAVORABLE FOR SLOW DEVELOPMENT DURING THE NEXT DAY OR TWO AS THE SYSTEM MOVES WESTWARD.

-- RattleMan 02:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * East of the Lesser Antilles? Could become Gamma, but the November preferred tracks say storms move northward - so he'd be gone fishin' if he forms (whatever fish he can find up there)... CrazyC83 15:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * 11:30 AM Tropical Weather Outlook makes it sound like this one won't be joining the Greek Letter Society after all.(Let's hope they've switched to "Spin the Fishie" as their hazing ritual...the previous ones have been dangerous).--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 17:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I notice that the eastern Carribean remains warm, and that this tropical wave is now beyond that over the warmest waters and but is heading towards the now cooler waters of the western Carribean and the Gulf of Mexico. However, I don't see us as "out of the woods" yet:  This invest could still develop if the upper level winds shear dies down, and I expect at least one November storm in any case.  As for going fishing:  By that logic Beta should not have headed into Nicaragua.  As a practical matter, each storm and even each season has its own personality, and so the next storm will go where it chooses to go. --EMS | Talk 16:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS OVER THE CARIBBEAN SEA SOUTH OF HISPANIOLA ARE ASSOCIATED WITH A TROPICAL WAVE. THERE ARE NO SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION AND DEVELOPMENT...IF ANY...SHOULD BE SLOW TO OCCUR.

Looks like this one doesn't want to give up. tdwuhs

Nope, it's dead. Navy removed it from their site, and NHC says "CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS OVER THE CARIBBEAN SEA SOUTH OF HISPANIOLA HAVE DECREASED.", though I don't think that's the same 92L, but a different wave. -- RattleMan 03:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Anything else?
The models have been very consistent in keeping relatively low pressures, and favorable conditions, over the Caribbean for a number of days. A few hint towards the area where Beta formed, but with nothing conclusive. Certainly this is the area to watch for the next week... but for now, check the models once or twice a day, and lets try to remember that we all had hobbies before the hurricane season of 2005 did away with 'em. --The Great Zo 15:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Right now, it's all clear. A rare break indeed - a sign that the season is winding down. CrazyC83 21:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO... TROPICAL STORM FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED THROUGH THURSDAY. FORECASTER PASCH $$ -- RattleMan 22:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It has been awhile since I have a TWO like that, nice to finally see it. --Holderca1 23:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * There's an interesting spot of convection down near Beta territory. Not much circulation to it though and no sign pressures are falling. The whole world seems to be quieting down. Typhoon Kai-tak, the most recent tropical cyclone anywhere in the world just moved into Vietnam this morning and is dissipating. Otherwise, all is quiet on the Western Front (and the eastern, and southern fronts too :D). The world's largest bank of dry air has lodged itself over the Gulf of Mexico. It's been there since not long after Wilma formed. Season appears over for the obliterated Gulf coast. The eastern Atlantic, largely inactive for most of the season, appears done (Saharan Air appears there to stay). Waters have gotten cold north of Bermuda, they're done. If we get a Gamma, it will most likely be in the Caribean or somewhere between 10N to 25N and 55W to 85W. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 00:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Anywhere in the tropical Atlantic and it is likely a fish-spinner. The Gulf of Mexico is generally too unstable in November for development. CrazyC83 07:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Mitch was active in the Caribbean seven years ago this week. It's not too late for another major hurricane. Good kitty 18:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * But the latest major hurricane ever was Lenny in 1999 just 10 days after today. We're reaching the tail end of the potential for dangerous hurricanes. On an unrelated note, the northwestern Caribbean was mentioned by the NHC in the most recent outlook. -- 69.86.16.61 23:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Meanwhile, check this out (320x240 MPEG-1 is the best). It shows SSTs, clouds (storms), and wind patterns, all changing as you view them up to October 26th. -- RattleMan 01:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

It would be cool if some techno/hurricane freaks make a composite of all the storms of 2005 in one image of the entire Atlantic Basin. That would be a CROWD! -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 14:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA HAVE DIMINISHED. AN AREA OF DISORGANIZED CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS IS LOCATED OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE ADJACENT LAND AREAS. DEVELOPMENT...IF ANY...SHOULD BE SLOW TO OCCUR.

Looks like Beta reincarnated?? tdwuhs

AoI:11W1A: Honduras
Looks like some activity is occuring right off the Hondurian coast. Something to watch over the next few days. -- RattleMan 07:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's harder for storms to develop in November, there isn't much water for it to work with and pulling a Lenny requires the absolute strangest conditions (but what's left to see in 2005???) CrazyC83 20:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

AN AREA OF CLOUDINESS AND THUNDERSTORMS CONTINUES OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE ADJACENT LAND AREAS. DEVELOPMENT...IF ANY...SHOULD BE SLOW TO OCCUR.

11:30 AM TWO, waiting for 5:30 (or is it 4:30? I forgot) -- RattleMan 21:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

TROPICAL STORM FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED THROUGH MONDAY.

Serious lull time,folks...is Pledge Week over for the Greek Letter Society?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 22:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Hopefully. --Revolución (talk) 01:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The tropics were quiet, but today was a busy day in the Midwest and Northeast... CrazyC83 05:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * TROPICAL STORM FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED TRHOUGH FRIDAY.


 * After all the records for intensity,is this season gunning to set records for inactivity too?...I suppose there's no record of consecutive flatlined Outlooks.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 20:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI:11W1B: GoM
Some convection has fired and persisted for most of the day today (Sunday) in the Gulf of Mexico. NHC calls it the "STRONGEST OF ALL THE WAVES IN THE ATLC BASIN TONIGHT". There's lots of shear in the area...but since nothing major in the Atlantic basin has been happening for a while now, I thought I'd note this. -- RattleMan 06:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Week 2

 * It's like we have waited all season for this [silence]... CrazyC83 01:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC) (forgot to sign in earlier)

AoI:11W2A: Tropical Atlantic
There's this interesting spot of convection north of Puerto Rico, but the NHC doesn't seem too concerned about it. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 14:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * What direction is that blob moving? CrazyC83 16:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * There's also some other interesting convection in the southwestern Caribbean, down by where Beta formed. -- John, 21:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This disturbance appears to be dissipating, and no wonder: it just went through a bank of 60 knot wind shear! -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:16, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI:11W2B: Caribbean System
Might have to be watched. From latest TWO:

AN AREA OF CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS HAS DEVELOPED OVER PANAMA AND THE ADJACENT SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA. SOME SLOW DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM IS POSSIBLE OVER THE NEXT DAY OR SO AS IT DRIFTS NORTHWARD.

The season is not over! Hurricanehink 22:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Enh, well, this thing's a long way from being Tropical Depression 27. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No kidding...only a few can develop in November. It's just too unstable at the upper levels. CrazyC83 19:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there will be any more hurricanes. If any more storms form I think they'll be tropical storms or tropical depressions. --Revolución (talk) 05:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am assuming that there will be one more system, down in the Carribean where this system currently is. The SSTs remain fairly warm there, and all that is needed for a storm to form is for the shear to relax.  The current NHC Tropical Atlantic Outlook reads:

1130 AM EST SAT NOV 12 2005 A BROAD AREA OF LOW PRESSURE CENTERED OVER PANAMA IS PRODUCING EXTENSIVE CLOUDINESS AND SCATTERED SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS FROM NORTHWESTERN COLOMBIA WESTWARD OVER MOST OF THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA... PANAMA... COSTA RICA... AND EASTERN NICARAGUA. SHOWER ACTIVITY HAS INCREASED AND BECOME SLIGHTLY BETTER ORGANIZED TODAY... AND CONDITIONS COULD GRADUALLY BECOME MORE FAVORABLE FOR SOME ADDITIONAL DEVELOPMENT TO OCCUR AS THE SYSTEM DRIFTS NORTHWARD OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS. ...


 * So there is a chance that something may form there soon. A hurricane?  That remains possible, but as the waters cool (and even in the Carribean they are cooling) that becomes more and more unlikely.  But we will see.  This has been an odd hurricane season.  A November hurricane would not be "out of character" for it.  --EMS | Talk 16:58, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Recon Plan for Tomorrow:

ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS 1. NEGATIVE RECONNAISSANCE REQUIREMENTS. 2. OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY: POSSIBLE LOW LEVEL INVEST NEAR 11.5N 81.5W AT 14/2000Z.

-- RattleMan 17:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

93L.INVEST
It's now an Invest [] tdwuhs
 * Hmmm...Could this develop? In November? But then again, it's the 2005 season... -- RattleMan 20:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Every season since 1997 except 2000 and 2002 had November activity. It's more likely than not that we'll see another storm or two. -- 69.86.16.61 20:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * 2003 didn't have November activity either. Perhaps you were looking at Nicholas, who just managed to crawl into November 1 as an extratropical depression. That doesn't count! Anyway, historical records mean little. This season above all others has proved that. Remember, 1995, with all its activity, was quiet all November. This invest, by the way, seems to have lost most of its shower activity. Their's no rain in this thing! Also, 20 and 30 knot shear looms just north of it. November is not only the newest, but least active month of the season. I believe the most storms to form in November is 2 or 3. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 02:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Can't see this developing. All eyes should be on 94L...then again it is the 2005 season, and storms have fooled us on every move... CrazyC83 04:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, okay, 2003 didn't have November activity, but I think December activity can count as November activity. -- 69.86.16.61 14:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It's now gone from the Navy site. -- RattleMan 01:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems to be picking up again. I'd say it was a different one, but the Navy site relisted 93L.INVEST... here's the TWO: A BROAD AREA OF LOW PRESSURE IS PRODUCING A LARGE AREA OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA AND ADJACENT LAND AREAS. UPPER LEVEL WINDS APPEAR CONDUCIVE FOR TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION IN THIS AREA... ALTHOUGH ANY DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM IS EXPECTED TO BE GRADUAL DUE TO ITS POOR ORGANIZATION AND ITS PROXIMITY TO LAND. REGARDLESS OF DEVELOPMENT... THIS SYSTEM COULD PRODUCE LOCALLY HEAVY RAINFALL OVER PORTIONS OF CENTRAL AMERICA FROM PANAMA TO NICARAGUA DURING THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. THESE RAINS COULD LEAD TO LIFE-THREATENING FLASH FLOODS AND MUD SLIDES. --Patteroast 18:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI:11W2C: Windward Islands
Meanwhile, now that 93L is out, there's another area to the East of the Windward Islands that looks good. TWD says "TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED ABOUT 300 NM E OF THE WINDWARD ISLANDS ALONG 56W/57W S OF 15N MOVING W 10-15 KT. THE WAVE CONTINUES TO DISPLAY A FAIRLY WELL-DEFINED LOW-LEVEL CIRCULATION IN SATELLITE IMAGERY BUT REMAINS EMBEDDED WITHIN A WESTERLY SHEAR ENVIRONMENT." -- RattleMan 20:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

94L.INVEST
A new invest has JUST popped up associated with this AoI. Wow, two invests in one night. -- RattleMan 02:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * A little late in the season for tropical waves ain't it? NHC says the upper atmosphere isn't very kind right now over this system. It is indeed currently over an area with 30 knot shear. That said, data from CIMSS says that wind shear has been decreasing by as much as 20 knots in the waters ahead of the wave. . And it also looks pretty impressive: . Looks can be decieving though... -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 02:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

10:30 PM TWO:

AN AREA OF LOW PRESSURE ALONG A TROPICAL WAVE IS CENTERED ABOUT 100 MILES EAST-SOUTHEAST OF BARBADOS. THIS SYSTEM HAS BEEN PRODUCING A CONCENTRATED AREA OF THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY NEAR THE DEVELOPING CIRCULATION CENTER DURING THE PAST FEW HOURS. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS APPEAR MARGINALLY CONDUCIVE FOR ADDITIONAL DEVELOPMENT... AND IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THIS SYSTEM COULD BECOME A TROPICAL DEPRESSION DURING THE NEXT DAY OR TWO AS IT MOVES WEST-NORTHWESTWARD AT ABOUT 10 MPH. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT A TROPICAL DEPRESSION FORMS... THIS SYSTEM COULD BRING SOME GUSTY WINDS AND LOCALLY HEAVY RAINS TO PORTIONS OF THE WINDWARD AND LEEWARD ISLANDS OVERNIGHT TONIGHT AND ON SUNDAY.

-- RattleMan 03:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's one that should develop. Not likely into a monster, but at least into TD27 and possibly Tropical Storm Gamma. Now don't rush into making articles... CrazyC83 04:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, Grasshopper, the tropics are fickle. Nothing is anywhere close to certain. I've seen waves spoken more highly of than this one and end up amounting to nothing. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 21:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

000 WONT41 KNHC 140101 DSAAT SPECIAL TROPICAL DISTURBANCE STATEMENT NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL 800 PM EST SUN NOV 13 2005 SATELLITE IMAGERY... RADAR DATA... AND SURFACE OBSERVATIONS INDICATE THE LARGE LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM CENTERED OVER THE SOUTHEASTERN CARIBBEAN SEA ABOUT 85 MILES WEST-SOUTHWEST OF ST. LUCIA HAS BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED THIS EVENING. THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY HAS INCREASED NEAR AND JUST TO THE EAST OF THE CENTER... AND ST. LUCIA REPORTED A SUSTAINED WIND OF 33 MPH DURING THE PAST HOUR. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS ARE ALSO GRADUALLY BECOMING A LITTLE MORE FAVORABLE. IF THUNDERSTORMS CONTINUE TO DEVELOP CLOSER TO THE CIRCULATION CENTER ...THEN A TROPICAL DEPRESSION COULD FORM LATER TONIGHT OR MONDAY AS THE SYSTEM MOVES WEST-NORTHWESTWARD AT ABOUT 10 MPH. INTERESTS IN  THE EASTERN CARIBBEAN SEA AND ADJACENT LAND AREAS SHOULD CLOSELY MONITOR THE PROGRESS OF THIS SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. FORECASTER STEWART $$

Getting interesting! Hurricanehink 01:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Good catch, TD27 might be up by 10 Eastern. NSLE ( 讨论 ) \< extra > 01:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks like the Atlantic wants to stay ahead of the West Pacific. Oh, Toto I don't think we'll ever get back to Kansas. tdwuhs


 * The West Pacific has a TD active right now that would tie things up again, but, if this becomes Gamma, the Atlantic will stay in front. It really will be a huge event if the Atlantic outstrips the West Pacific this year. -- 69.86.16.61 02:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Tropical Depression 27
Hello, Tropical Depression 27! -- RattleMan 02:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ain't over til it's over! God, this is unbelievable. Tropical Depression 27. T-W-E-N-T-Y-S-E-V-E-N! I can't believe it. God Almighty this season is unbelievable! It just keep spittin' em out. After that last Invest failed to develop, I thought that the season may have been over. I hope this one is docile, we can't take another hurricane. Neither can anyone in the Caribbean. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 03:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Time is on our side, but this being the 2005 season, anything is possible. I see this becoming Tropical Storm Gamma, but it will have to really start strengthening to make its way to hurricane status. CrazyC83 15:06, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * And yet, the NHC's 5-day cone (not overwhelmingly reliable, but still) makes it a hurricane on Saturday. And nothing but landslide-prone developing nations in front of it.  :(  --DavidK93 21:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Until it gets out of that westerly shear though, which is expected to last for 24 hours or more, I don't see it becoming much. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 22:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Though Arlene was in the same situation with a few variables off but manage to get her act together. Being 2005 I think we should be prepared for a storm but hope for it to be mild. tdwuhs


 * Agreed - after all, the GFDL has consistently forecasted this to go to Category 4 strength... CrazyC83 01:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * GFDL has a history of being slightly overzealous. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Overzealous...and accurate...although I'm going well below the GFDL this time; I'm thinking that TD27/Gamma will creep to 40 mph - and die from there. Too much shear. If it were to become a hurricane, it would have to survive at least 4-5 days first before it may get a chance to go into rapid intensification. CrazyC83 05:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If it can survive the next two to three days... the track forecast has it slowing significantly in much more favorable conditions over the western Caribbean. The Great Zo 17:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks like there are already a couple of deaths blamed on this system. Ajm81 17:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting they mention "Gamma" in the title but it hasn't been named yet...my focus right now is on a potential tornado outbreak from Mississippi to Michigan and eastward...I am watching it closely... CrazyC83 19:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds like CNN. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 23:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks like it's moving south towards land now. -- RattleMan 06:33, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The activity that is invest 93L is now stated as 27L on the navy site can anyone explain this? tdwuhs

Tropical Storm Gamma
We have it! Public Advisory. Woohoo! 10 bucks there will be a Tropical Storm Gamma article within the next 24 hours. Hurricanehink 20:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm sure someone will try...it's not needed at this point. Another Greek fraternity fooled us again!!! CrazyC83 23:03, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Damn frat boys... -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 00:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * But you have to admit their kind of cute, lol! Anyway, will any more frats or sority girls show up?? tdwuhs


 * Cute? Tropical cyclones are a lot of things, cute isn't one of them. I hate to break it to you but these frat parties have killed at least 26 people (Alpha). -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 01:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Gamma killed two as well as a TD. -- Cuivienen 03:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * While the sorority Beta didn't kill anyone (due to good planning), it did cause a lot of damage... CrazyC83 23:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks like this thing is gonna take the same path as Wilma. Now I don't know where to find the charts about warm water and wind shear, and I don't know what the prediction charts are saying (except that it'll hit Florida) but I got a gut .feeling that Gamma will be a Major Hurricane at landfall. But, there is no scientific proof to prove that. Fableheroesguild 18:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * What?!?!? It's falling apart. No way it will become a major hurricane! Hurricanehink 18:59, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Like I said, no scientific proof. Just a gut feeling. This same gut feeling thought Stan was gonna be a devestation Cat. 4, not a deadly Cat. 1. Fableheroesguild 20:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think there is a much better chance that Gamma will dissipate than become a major hurricane, but being 2005, anything is possible... CrazyC83 23:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Looks like Brother Gamma is the wimpiest member of the Greek Letter Society.--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 04:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I advise looking again. Gamma now has a higher ACE than Alpha.  --EMS | Talk 04:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Alpha didn't last very long. Gamma stands a snowball's chance in hell of becoming a hurricane much less a major hurricane. Gamma would be a good, quiet end to the Hurricane Season From Hell. Ironically, the last season to end with a major hurricane was quiet 2002. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 05:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * More to the point,Alpha reached higher peak winds and killed more people.I say Gamma is the wimp (though unlike the Katrina-Rita-Wilma one-upping,I wouldn't mind seeing Delta form and be the weakest yet).--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 16:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

ACE calcs
TD27 has regenerated, and become Gamma. --EMS | Talk 21:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Note that the links for future advisories will not work until the advisory is issued. Please update the ACE section of the article after updating these calculations. --EMS | Talk 21:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't the first be at 40 and the next one 45. The NHC advisories state that. tdwuhs
 * No, the 40 and 45 in the advisories are in MPH. ACE uses KT (knots). Ajm81 06:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks like the calc table has not been updated for today's advisories but the article has?...does time as TD count or not?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 16:13, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure TD time doesn't count, but it seems the 35-kt TS advisory wasn't in the table. --AySz88^ - ^ 16:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Additions to the ACE are only made for TS status and above (35+ knots). That is why the table starts with advisory 12, BTW:  Before then this had only been a TD. --EMS | Talk 04:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI: Southwestern Caribbean
We have a tropical miscreant in Beta territory again. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 23:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

93L.INVEST: Reborn

 * That's 93L reborn. It re-emerged on the Navy site today. -- RattleMan 23:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yup, right here: -- Cuivienen 00:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Because this is simply 93L.INVEST reborn and not a new AoI at all, I've renamed the title of this section to reflect that. There is no reason for it to be reverted. -- Cuivienen 03:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I say that all 93L.INVEST stuff should go under the previous category (including this one), but whatever...I've changed the section title... -- RattleMan 03:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Seconded. Anyhow, 93L is looking much better organised than TD27 (and the NHC seems to agree!

IT APPEARS THAT THE DEPRESSION...OR ITS REMNANT...IS ABOUT TO BE DRAWN INTO A MORE DOMINANT LOW PRESSURE AREA OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA. INDEED...THIS LATTER SYSTEM IS THE MORE IMPRESSIVE-LOOKING FEATURE AT THIS TIME.
 * Look at this image I took of the Navy site, with 93L on the left and TD27 on the right! NSLE ( 讨论 + extra ) 10:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems like nothing wants to die this season.

Look at that flare up! tduwhs


 * It's 2005 after all...nothing is impossible. Maybe a repeat of Alice2 will be our Christmas "gift"? CrazyC83 20:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting occurrences. I wonder if it will be called 27 or 28? More likely it will be directly upgraded to Gamma. Regardless, it is looking more and more organized. Hurricanehink 02:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * NHC said that

FORMATION OF A TROPICAL DEPRESSION OR A TROPICAL STORM IS POSSIBLE OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA DURING THE NEXT DAY OR SO... EITHER THROUGH REGENERATION OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION TWENTY-SEVEN... OR DEVELOPMENT OF THE LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM CURRENTLY OVER NICARAGUA.


 * So it depend on whether it is a generation of 27. No matter it is 27 or 28, I agree that it will probably become Gamma.202.40.137.198 08:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This thing looks really good. Look what NHC says: . -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 16:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

AoI: NE Leeward Islands
A NON-TROPICAL AREA OF LOW PRESSURE IS CENTERED ABOUT 900 MILES NORTHEAST OF THE LEEWARD ISLANDS. ADDITIONAL SLOW DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM IS POSSIBLE OVER THE NEXT DAY OR SO.

Did anyone see this? After two weeks of nothing, numerous activity is bubbling!!tdwuhs


 * Yup, I've noticed it for a while but haven't said anything. Could be interesting. I fixed the title, it used to say "Northwest Leeward Islands" ;). You also put Aol (AO-el) instead of AoI (AO-eye), so I fixed that too. (on a sidenote, I don't think I'm going to be numbering these AoI anymore, they look a bit odd like that...for anyone who didn't know the AoI format, it was "AoI:(month #)W(week #)(AoI # by letter): (description)". If this AoI was numbered, it would have been "AoI:11W3B: Leeward Islands", but I'm getting off topic now.) -- RattleMan 02:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Though it doesn't have as much organized shower activity as earlier, it still has potential as it heads southwestward. Reminds me of Otto from last year. Hurricanehink 02:30, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This thing just looks like your every-day extratropical low. This thing doesn't impress me much. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 15:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Southward? You mean northward into the open Atlantic. CrazyC83 23:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

95L.INVEST
I think an area more north-east than the system mentioned in the TWO a few days ago (and in the above AoI) was has now been designated as 95L. -- RattleMan 14:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting models... . It could become Tropical if it follows that path. Winds are already at 35 mph. Hurricanehink 14:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * winds of 35 mph is enough to make it a depression, right? --Revolución (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Strangely, it seems to be already warm-core (or at least will become warm-core): http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cyclonephase/compare/05112000/M14.html, http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cyclonephase/consensus/fcst/archive/05112000/14.html#diag1 . --AySz88^ - ^ 15:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Check out the filename now from the NRL : "20051120.1945.goes12.x.ir1km_bw.95LINVEST.35kts-1003mb-282N-434W.jpg"

If 95L is upgraded, it will likely go straight to Delta. -- RattleMan 20:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

5:30 PM EST TWO: A LARGE NON-TROPICAL LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM IS LOCATED OVER THE CENTRAL ATLANTIC ABOUT 1250 MILES SOUTHWEST OF THE AZORES ISLANDS. THIS SYSTEM HAS SOME POTENTIAL TO SLOWLY ACQUIRE SOME TROPICAL CHARACTERISTICS OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS SYSTEM CAN BE FOUND IN HIGH SEAS FORECASTS ISSUED BY THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE...UNDER AWIPS HEADER NFDHSFAT1 AND WMO HEADER FZNT01 KWBC.\ NSLE ( 讨论 + extra ) 00:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, this season really wants to drag on...Tropical Storm Delta is probably not far away...although I can't see it becoming much more than that... CrazyC83 06:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It needs a warm core first. That's what Vince needed. The winds aren't a problem. It's still non tropical. Look at the color enhanced infrared from CIMSS: . The brighter the red, the warmer and stronger the convection is. Compare that dim system to the blinding image of Wilma at peak intensity. . Look actually like a subtropical storm but I can't be sure because I don't know where the center is. Well organized though, just not tropical. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 22:42, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * FSU already says it's already warm-core. I can't think of any reason why it's not at least subtropical.  --AySz88^ - ^  22:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Why are we comparing a suspected Tropical Storm with the 882 mb image of the most intense hurricane in Atlantic basin history? Obviously Wilma's going to win that comparison.  I'd rather see a comparison with a relatively weak TS to see the difference. PK9 00:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Here you go then. Vince is barely at hurricane strength on the right, 95L is at 40 knots (!) on the left. NSLE ( 讨论 + extra ) 00:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Those images only compare organization, which is difficult to compare as far as strength is concerned - this Invest looks more organized than Arlene at peak intensity, yet Arlene was tropical and this, apparently, is not. Only the warmth of the core can give an accurate demonstration of why this storm system is not yet considered tropical or at least subtropical. -- Cuivienen 02:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

One thing it does say is that it has gale-force (tropical storm-force) winds. That means it would immediately become Delta, not TD28. CrazyC83 16:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The 11:30 TWO contains this lovely phrase: "THIS SYSTEM IS GRADUALLY ACQUIRING TROPICAL CHARACTERISTICS AND COULD BECOME A TROPICAL STORM AT ANY TIME." Now, maybe I'm crazy, but doesn't that sound exactly like the description of a storm that is already subtropical? Anyway, it looks like they fully expect to be issuing advisories on Delta by tonight. --DavidK93 16:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, I'd expect to see Tropical Storm Delta at the next advisory, if it isn't already such...although, unlike with Vince, there shouldn't be a whole lot of hesitation. CrazyC83 17:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Note the term 'gradually'. That means it's a gradual process. I don't know where the 5:30 TWO is. It's late, they're usually early! -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 22:39, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It looks just like Vince now. It even has an eye. Good kitty 23:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

5:30 PM EST TWO: A STRONG AND LARGE NON-TROPICAL LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM OVER THE CENTRAL ATLANTIC CENTERED ABOUT 1000 MILES SOUTHWEST OF THE AZORES ISLANDS IS DRIFTING SOUTHWARD. THIS SYSTEM IS GRADUALLY ACQUIRING TROPICAL CHARACTERISTICS AND COULD BECOME A TROPICAL STORM AT ANY TIME. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THIS SYSTEM CAN BE FOUND IN HIGH SEAS FORECASTS ISSUED BY THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE...UNDER AWIPS HEADER NFDHSFAT1 AND WMO HEADER FZNT01 KWBC.

Still not upgraded... It must be a subtropical storm at least by now! -- Cuivienen 23:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Why do you think they haven't made it a suptropucal storm? tdwuhs


 * Because they're the experts, were not. They have access to more data than we do. They know what it all means, we don't. To be honest, the infrared image doesn't look all that impressive. . See that little spot of convection on the far right? That's 95. Notice the lack of orange or red. Compare 95 to weak storm Lee . See how Lee has more green and some red? That tells me that Lee was more tropical and better organized. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 05:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

This little sucker is looking almost exactly like Vince did before the NHC even recognized it as a tropical storm... -- RattleMan 04:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The newest update to the Weather Channel website's Hurricane Central page says that "a large subtropical cyclone with winds estimated to be in excess of 40 mph remains positioned in the central Atlantic." I don't know where they lifted the word "subtropical" from, since the TWOs haven't included it, but they have clearly described this as a subtropical storm despite it not being named as one. So weird. --DavidK93 12:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * They've fixed it to say 'non-tropical' now. -- Cuivienen 15:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Tropical Storm Delta
[] It's a depression. tdwuhs

What do you think will happen next?

But the NHC says its a storm now. And it's already at 60mph can you beleive it!!! What a season so far?? tdwuhs
 * And we got Δ. Can this grab the extra 15 miles and become a hurricane? Tito xd (?!?) 20:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well technically it just needs 14. But that would be impressive. Watch out for those sority girls!  Fourteen hurricanes in a season?? I'm wondering if the Weather Gods are playing a trick and switched the Pacific and Atlantic seasons. tdwuhs
 * True, but the NHC only gives wind speeds in 5-mph intervals, so 75 mph is in practice the minimum wind speed necessary for a storm to become a hurricane. But yes... Tito xd (?!?) 21:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's δ since we've been using lower-case Greek letters. I'm going to go fix the button bar template now. -- Cuivienen 21:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

But Δ is more recognizable then δ. Lower case letters are used for those Greek Letters that look like the Latin Alphabet


 * We can't just choose arbitrarily which ones we'll use. 'δ' is not unknown. -- Cuivienen 21:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not surprised it is already 60/982, it developed out of an extratropical low, not a tropical wave. I'd say it will be a hurricane soon. Fortunately no threat to land, but someone may still rush to a Hurricane Delta article... CrazyC83 21:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Why does the timeline say that Delta is a hurricane but the article says that it is a tropical storm?Freiberg 00:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Fixed Freiberg 03:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

From [http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/dis/al282005.discus.001.shtml? Delta's Discussion #1]: "THE 2005 ATLANTIC TROPICAL CYCLONE SEASON REFUSES TO END"... I think we all agree with that one 23:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, what the heck? 10 PM Discussion on Delta: SOME OF THE GLOBAL MODELS... SUCH AS THE GFS AND ECMWF...SHOW A NEW CYCLONE FORMING TO THE WEST OF DELTA AND BECOMING THE DOMINANT SYSTEM IN 3-5 DAYS. -- RattleMan 03:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It might be an extratropical cyclone, not Epsilon... CrazyC83 17:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

NOGAPS SHOWS SOME BINARY INTERACTION OCCURRING WITH AN EXTRATROPICAL LOW THAT IS FORECAST TO DEVELOP TO THE WEST OF DELTA BY 96 HOURS. THE OFFICIAL FORECAST TRACK REFLECTS THIS INTERACTION BY A SLOW TURN TOWARD THE NORTHWEST IN 96-120 HOURS.


 * That sounds like it could be Epsilon to me. Or rather, Delta v2.0. "Develop" could mean "become tropical." - Cuivienen 20:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * GFS, and NOGAPS project it as warm core in the future. GFDL projects it as borderline transitioning extratropical, and the other models that the site offers don't mark it at all. --AySz88^ <font color="#FF6633">- <font color="#FF3300">^  04:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the Unisy Tracking Map almost the whole Atlantic has been visited by a Tropical Cyclone. With the exception of a little pocket around Puerto Rico and the Northern Leeward Islands. Can you believe this season? If Delta becomes a hurricane that makes 14! Good thing the season is almost over. tdwuhs

Delta's gone all the way back up to its peak strength! Well, that was unexpected. We could still see the 14th hurricane of the season, and maybe a non-extratropical Africa landfall. Might need to start a "Northeast Atlantic Hurricane basin" if more Vince- and Delta-like storms form in the future! - Cuivienen 21:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Unlike Vince, this is a crossover into the area from the central Atlantic. BTW, I think we should create a separate article ONLY it actually makes it there while still tropical. CrazyC83 23:21, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

With the NHC forecast looks like Delta is going to cut it close. The year is 2005 so I think anything is possible. Delta did manage to get back to it's peak wind speeds when everyone thought it woudl decrease! First Europe, now Africa and ofcourse North America the only continent now going to be affected this year is South America and who knows! do you think because of Vince and Delta they will name a tropical cyclone that develops in the South Atlantic from the list? tdwuhs
 * I doubt it. They'd probably try to continue the Aldonca trend and name it with a 'B' name. Informally, of course. - Cuivienen 01:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Delta's ACE Calcs
Note that the advisory links will not work until the advisory is issued. Please update the ACE section of the article after updating these calculations. --EMS 20:??, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Delta is in the GMT/UTC timezone now, isn't it? Shouldn't all times then be given solely in UTC? - Cuivienen 16:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Times are based on the NHC public advisories. If they are still using AST then we should too. Ajm81 03:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Why do people keep reverting Delta ACE to Gamma ACE? Freiberg 00:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delta shouldn't be added until it has dissipated. That way, it won't be necessary to keep updating the total ACE value. - Cuivienen 00:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * (reply to Freiberg) Read the sentence again: "The total for the season up to and including Tropical Storm Gamma is 219.394". Saying, "...Tropical Storm Delta" would give you a false statement, since 219.394 doesn't include Delta. --AySz88<font color="#FF9966">^ <font color="#FF6633">- <font color="#FF3300">^  00:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm one of them who keeps reverting it to Gamma, as as stated above, it's Gamma at 219.394, with Delta it would be over 223. NSLE ( 讨论 + extra ) 01:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry --Freiberg 14:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Does the 10 am advisory count towards the ACE? Delta became extratropical at that time. - Cuivienen 15:07, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. The advisory says the Delta is "becoming extratropical", not that it outright is.  However, this is the end of Delta as a tropical cyclone, and the article can now be updated to include the final ACE for Delta in the season aggregate. --EMS | Talk 15:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I see it saying "BECOMES EXTRATROPICAL" where does it say "becoming"? crandles 16:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry I see that on the discussion now, I was looking at the 11AM advisory. crandles 16:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Delta heading for Africa?
First Vince hitting Europe, now this? Strange season indeed--Revolución (talk) 19:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It'll be extratropical before landfall. Might be the most rain ever in Western Sahara, though. - Cuivienen 21:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I know! What a season. I guess Delta wanted to go down in history too. Not just being another greek storm or the 25th but the one that visited Africa. Wasn't Vince extratropical too when made landfall? Vince was higher in altitude then Delta is going to. But I will take my que from the NHC if Delta becomes extratropcal before hitting Africa. But I think it will stay as a depression and tropical when hits Africa.tduwhs &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.189.156.178 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:16, November 26, 2005 (UTC).
 * Vince was a tropical depression when it made landfall. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.124.36.169 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:59, November 26, 2005 (UTC).


 * Delta not a threat to land? So what is that little group of islands called the Canaries then? Or Africa for that matter? It may not threaten land as a Topical Storm, it may not be a threat to the American continent, but it's still predicted to make landfall and thus surely should be seen as a threat to land? - JVG 12:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Will Delta be the first recorded tropical cyclone to hit Africa? Or has there been others? tdwuhs
 * I don't know of any storm that has made landfall in mainland Africa, but some have passed over the Cape Verdes and an unnamed tropical storm on 1988 former very near Africa, causing heavy rain on some parts of that continent. 200.74.174.50 20:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Should be extratropical before then...but then again, this IS 2005... CrazyC83 23:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You keep saying that like there's some magical deep mystery to it... this IS 2005. Yeah, thanks for the update. RPIRED 21:38, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * roffle. Mike H. That's hot 23:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It could be tropical in the Canaries but I doubt Africa, even if it's 2005. Plus, even if it does hit there, not much to kill but camels. I can see the parched African continent begging this thing to come ashore. To say they need the rain is to be putting it mildly. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 04:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Do deaths go towards the storm even if they happen after the storm turns extratropical? tdwuhs


 * No. And just for clarification, it is not rare for extratropical storms to hit Europe (although Africa is quite a bit more rare). It happens quite often, so this isn't really anything new. THe NHC won't count it as a landfall because it was extratropical before it reached the African coast. bob rulz 06:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that? I thought they did count... CrazyC83 16:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If that were the case, then we'd count Maria hitting Iceland or Norway. Tropical Depression counts, extratropical does not. (And what an odd conversation, whether or not it "counts") --Golbez 16:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a thought but why is Delta listed as becoming extratropical in AST? The Azores are GMT-1, the Canaries and west Africa are GMT, Delta was nowhere near Labrador or Bermuda which are the closest places observing GMT-4. Maybe change AST to WET (Western European Time) as observed in the Canaries? - JVG 14:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * GMT is known as WET (Western European Time) in Portugal and the Canaries. - JVG 14:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Delta's effects in the Canaries
...should receive a litle more coverage. Links: Kosebamse 13:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28289044.htm
 * http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29766050.htm
 * http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=258014&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/

Let's get a picture of this thing up. 165.234.109.158 14:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)